102231-more-content-you-cannot-pug-sabotage
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- Um, the way it should be? You would prefer a system where coordination is worthless and one person (SERIOUSLY ONE PERSON?!) can carry the team? Your idea of balance is laughable. | |} ---- PEBKAC imho. | |} ---- Seriously it does happen in other PvP MMOs as long as there are a few decent players in your team and the other team are just random players and not a hardcore guild you can actually pull it off. | |} ---- It wasn't always like this, either. It was assumed in ye olde dayf of MMORPGs that you were going to assemble a PUG by calling out into the general chat or LFG channel to get one together, communicate about how it was all going to work, and do everything in your power to make it work because, if you didn't, replacing members manually was a *cupcake*. Back in the modern day, in the days of cross-server PUGging in WoW, you can just assume that people know what they're supposed to be doing in any given dungeon or battleground and, if they aren't, they're easily replaced and expendable. You don't have a friends list like a rolodex of good tanks, healers, and DPS. You barely know who you play with. That doesn't work as well in Wildstar, though I think they're still closer to new-age WoW than vanilla WoW in that respect. The content is technically PUGgabble, but you learn very quickly that, especially in PVP, a group of people who know what they're doing can survive against an onslaught of keybashers three or four times their size or with twice their item level in gear. Normally, a little chatter would fix the problem, but most people, from our steady diet of easier content that allows you to drop in and drop out without even saying 'hello' has spoiled most people into thinking that Wildstar PUGs will work that same way. They don't. A DPS that can't keep track of the healer and tank so he can get in the middle of heals can make life miserable, and it's even worse in PVP where a medic and a good mix of damage dealers can eviscerate uncoordinated groups of solo players. People have to learn to at least talk and come up with some kind of plan of action. | |} ---- Uhh, yes. If both sides are mostly randoms and one side has a few better players shouldn't they win? I'm missing your point maybe. I think the OP's issue is "Premade using VOIP" vs "PUG groups with one omgawesomzcarry". He feels he should be able to carry the PUG against a coordinated premade. Which is pretty ridiculous (imo). To simplify further: Premade that communicates >= PUG that communicates > Premade that doesn't communicate >= PUG that doesn't communicate (and no talking ish does not count :lol: ) | |} ---- ---- So what you're saying is the split servers along with random grabfromeveryserver is kind of hurting things because after a match you can't all sit down and talk about what just happened? I hate cross server stuff, I hate having multiple servers people can be jerks and transfer to new one, I hate there's no community in modern games. I liked waaay back in 2004/5 when BG's were server only. You knew who you were fighting against, you could learn their strengths and weaknesses. You knew who you were playing with, you could get used to their playstyles and adapt to working together. | |} ---- WELL SAID! Makes you wish we could go back to before things got so bad. I used to cherish the communities in the MMOs I haunted, reveling in my encounters with other like-minded individuals. Now I brace myself when dealing with randoms. Nowadays instead of discussing how to improve the situation we're in, people just point fingers, sling insults, and quit. Sad state of affairs really. | |} ---- There is no consequence for actions anymore. Nobody is responsible for anything. This breeds jerks and exploiters around every corner. It's all about me and what these nameless randoms can do for me. What I've complained about since the first cross real anything. Lack of Community. | |} ---- ---- ---- I take it you mean abandoned? Abundant means a lot of. | |} ---- You must not have played Star Wars: The Old Republic cause there is no cross server anything. And if you can`t find anyone or your friends aren`t playing you might as well forget about any group content pvp/pve. You`ll understand that cross server is a must in this day and age. | |} ---- Yeah, and in a way it makes a lot of sense. At the time, we all complained about how hard it was to make a group. And, to be fair, I wasn't sure that Blizz made a bad choice switching the game (putting together a PUG on the LFG was a pain in the ass sometimes). But we did lose something in that transition; not just the server, but the sense of community and bonding you got with people who were tanking offspec with a white shield they got in the dungeon while you were running Zul'Furrak for the first time. So it's the same trade-off. It makes getting into dungeons and adventures a lot less painless; that's true. I just think we've become accustomed to having group members be disposable, like Kleenex. It does take you out of the community a bit. Wildstar should have that problem less because of how hard it is and how much coordination it requires, but I think a lot of people just don't talk at all and get mad that the skill range of the average PUG isn't high enough or that people drop group when gold isn't attainable. A little bit of chatter solves a lot of problems one might be experiencing in this game; it's really modern MMORPG culture that's the problem. | |} ---- ---- ---- Well, I only know a handful of people still playing. Pugs are usually a good way to meet others. Pugs are kind of the only way to really meet others from your server. | |} ---- Or you know... larger servers so the need for all these shards doesn't exist. I thought after 10 years of technological upgrades the systems could handle more than 50 people per zone. \o/ | |} ---- ---- lol | |} ---- Fun? Stop trying to make it fun? | |} ---- You know, I've had a couple conversations with DFJ on these forums about simply collapsing the servers together into their playstyles and sharding everything, i.e. having one PVE, one PVP, and one RP server. Sharding keeps everyone from overpopulating and it would make sure that everyone is in the same server as everyone else they play with. I'm not sure if it would help on Evindra, since we're the lone RP server and our population wouldn't jump, but I feel like we don't have this problem quite as keenly as everywhere else. Theoretically, there's no "upper limit" to the server we could figure except the naming convention would have to change to having surnames or some kind of address. Seeger@Evindra or some such. | |} ---- He was probably referring to the OP lol. Eaaaasy on the defensiveness. | |} ---- ---- Well the idea that pugs shouldn't play is kind of dumb. If I personally knew everyone on the server before it launched, woo never pug! But this is a game where most of us don't know one another, how do you expect to group without pugging things from time to time? *Craigslist ad -> seeking hot sexy healer and tank, include photo and previous experience, may take 2-3 weeks processing* | |} ---- I don't know about that... You should try your server forums and join a guild. I bet you also have a ton of circles on your server that you could join as well. All new ways of meeting people without having to pug first. | |} ---- Where'd they say this, because from what I've seen, it doesn't look any more complicated than large BGs in WoW. And I know for sure that dungeons don't need a pre-made group or VoiP, just a lack of assholes. | |} ---- Yeah, let's overlook the entire quest structure from lvs 1-50. And shiphand missions. And the scalable instances available in your plot. Oh, and RBGs, dungeons, and adventures. Veteran adventures are DEFINITELY easily puggable. World bosses, dailies, and hell even crafting can be puggable. Again, PEBKAC. No one said PUGs shouldn't exist (I think?). He said "If you want a derp and pug MMO" which I took to mean "faceroll easy pugging". I might be way off though! | |} ---- MuffinMan (I think? don't quote me!) said something about coordination being helpful and he's freaking out lol. | |} ---- Ah. One of those "we made it helpful" comments getting twisted into "teh gamez designed around it" I get it now, thanks. This is just like "we didn't shy away from making some things hardcore" got morphed into "this game is only for hardcore players" | |} ---- ---- Heres the thing, your idea of fun sound boring to me, so from my pov you are trying to make the game boring. | |} ---- ---- Curses. We should give the game real world physics and stuff. Like if you get hit, you get crippled for months and can't leave the hospital for x amount of in game time. #hardcore | |} ---- That makes no sense, and has nothing to do with what i said. | |} ---- Actually I like that idea. Stuff like that is the reason why I find DayZ so fun. Eat some rotten food, well you're going to get sick. Can't find any food that isn't rotten, well if you don't eat the rotten food you will starve. (Of coures not as severe as going to the hospital, but dragging yourself around because of a broken leg, yeah I like that idea)>. | |} ---- Your version of fun isnt realistic and fun enough, I found it boring and came up with a not-boring thing. | |} ---- Like someone said earlier, but you don't appear to be hearing (ironic isn't it), you need to communicate to succeed. With the exception of raids you can PuG anything in this game if you communicate. People have become very lazy and used to face rolling content as fast as possible. | |} ---- ---- Then go play another game, instead of trying to ruin this one. | |} ---- It doesn't have to have a high degree of coordination... just more than the other team. | |} ---- No, my PUG experience has been fine, but I bolded the portion EVERYONE SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO! PUGs are perfectly fine to do content at multiple levels, but the higher your expectations go, the more likely you are to be disappointed. I've been just fine in PUGs so far and I've really enjoyed my dungeoning in them (I haven't guilded up yet, I'm just keeping good players on my rolodex at the moment) but I don't expect to advance in raid attunement with a PUG group reliably. If you do, it's not their fault that they aren't good enough or well-coordinated enough, or pleasant enough, it is the user's fault for using the queue system and expecting high-end, premade results. It's fast, convenient, and a good way to meet people and get started in the adventure or dungeon, but it's not a way to reliably run content at a high level. You just need to know what to expect in a PUG and stop putting the onus on those four people to be perfect for you, and then PUGs are perfectly fine for their intended purpose. | |} ---- ---- I remember sitting around LFG in EverQuest, when there were only 2 or 3 classes that could solo even trash mobs. After watching the devolution in WoW, I would still take the wait over cross server LFG tools. The only reason you see it as a must is because current culture dictates that everything must be given to you now. Instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, limiting to one server isn't a magical panacea for the community. There is the trade off of convenience for community. But to those of us that dislike cross-server LFG, it makes us sad that most people would apparently rather have the convenience than the community. | |} ---- ---- Great post! I think there was obviously a bait-and-switch going on here. We were told many times that there would be "solo gear" that was best for "solo activities" and that there would be many solo activities. It is becoming increasing clear though that Wildstar devs have actual contempt for the majority of their players, which is just bizarre in my opinion. It is really too bad. The game engine is awesome. Character looks are awesome. Fighting is awesome. Those 3 are why I am still playing. The actual oversight about reward tiers and solo vs group content, however, is just beyond bad. It is even worse than Vanguard when it released, and that is really saying something... | |} ---- If Everquest released now (with modern updated graphics, sure) with the mentality it had back then, it would fail, hands down. People have moved on. Almost no one wants to spend 24 hours camping a rare spawn, etc etc. Why? Because 99%+ of people have realized that that sort of gameplay is pure bullshit. It was anti-gameplay. The attempt was to bore you so much that you would no longer be able to play. I realize some people think that sort of anti-gameplay is "elite" but most have come to the realization that time-wasting is not gameplay. | |} ---- ---- Then take those nice people you meet and befriend, make a team, and work to become better to achieve your goals. People forget a lot of the steps nowadays with social engineering for progression in MMOs. | |} ---- You've had that option before. Its called Vanguard. Its called ff14 1.0. Its called every other half dozen smaller MMos in the past ten years thats catered to "oldschool" and "hardcore" style mMOs None of them have ever approached profitable enough to survive more than a few years before a tragic shutdown. because despite all the love and care put into them, they never attracted a huge enough fanbase on the merits of being "hardcore" | |} ---- Mostly pleasant experience for me to and I agree with everything you've said. | |} ---- I am not understanding you. Not one bit. So if you cannot get a perfectly smooth run, it's not worth attempting? *facepalm* | |} ---- ---- Sometimes I feel the same. At least I found a build for my esper that lets me solo whatever I want so I don't have to AFK in town while waiting for a friend or guildie (who haven't yet quit) to log in and help because the zones are devoid of life. I owe a thanks to the Lightspire community though. Those wonderful people are currently the main incentive for me to stay subscribed. The instanced content is lackluster past the shiphand missions. Current WoW does it better in this regard. Yes, please quote me on this and proceed to tell me that I should quit and go back to WoW or stuff myself. Everyone has a slice of the cake waiting for them and they can get additional, bigger, better slices if they wish to strive for it. That game actually piqued my interest in raiding (even back in TBC) instead of turning me away from it. It led me to work together with a lot of great people (and some not so great, of course) via pick up groups and eventually via guilds often formed from these pick up groups. WildStar gives me an empty platter and tells me to fight tooth and nail for not just a slice of cake but for the cutlery as well. This encourages me to view the other players as the enemy, even those from my own faction, and distance myself from everyone but the very best to minimise the margin of error while also maximising the chances of getting anything. Not just cake. Anything. To hell with that. I'm here to have a good time with existing acquintances while making new ones as well and that's what I'll do despite Carbine insistence on building cliques. That wasn't productive in high school (at least in my time) and I don't believe it's productive in gaming either. Or in any environment really. | |} ---- ---- Its not about the nerf. At least for me, it has to do with 'well, if I dont plan to raid, exactly what reason do I have to throw my poor widdle chua body against a content wall when I could be roleplaying or playing with my house or playing another MMO while I wait on more casual content ?" | |} ---- ---- the incentive was barely there anyhow given most of those purps are poorly itemized dribble. | |} ---- ---- No where in my post did I express a like of, or desire to return to, any of those aspects. Most specifically, I was addressing the very last thing that you said, "time-wasting is not gameplay." The attitude that if something doesn't directly improve your stats it's not worth doing, often carried so far as to say that if you aren't improving your stats at the best possible rate it's not worth doing. While for some things this holds true (4 day rare spawn timers, etc), I feel that with respect to grouping it's very worthwhile to actually get to know the people you are playing with. I am not a fan of cross-server LFG because 9 out of 10 times I run with it (various games) the entire run is done in steely silence. Most people do not even respond to chat, even if it relates to the content being done. The result of various changes like this in MMOs is that there is far less of a sense of community. Most of what's left of social aspects is relegated to guilds. As to the thread issue, I don't see a problem with content that requires premade groups. The issue isn't that the content is there, it's the ratio of it versus easy content. That is what's being asked for...easier endgame content. Do not take that as an insult or challenge of skills. I agree, there should be more content that you can jump into with a random group, slaughter everything in sight up until the boss, and then get serious for all of five to ten minutes. And be rewarded in some fashion that isn't completely undone by other content, rendering it pointless. | |} ---- ---- So it should go straight from solo content to organized with headsets? Nothing in between? And the people that like relaxing while playing with friends...they can all sod off right? Edit: You're probably addressing PvP, but the more organized group will pretty much always win in PvP... that's the thing about playing against other players. I see it as a non-issue honestly. | |} ---- Just because you can't "auto-win" in a PuG...doesn't mean it can't be PuG'd... People need to stop dropping groups the first time a PuG wipes, or makes a mistake... | |} ---- ..what quests? Once you finish the chains at Grimvault and Blighthaven theres no quests for solo players, heres no incentive to go get wha you missed because theres just miniscule exp reward for it. and if you think dailies are going to hold anyones attention for more than a week you're deluded. The dailies we have are terrible. | |} ---- ---- I made a new alt char on Pergo the other day (home server is Oceanic Myrcalus) I made the mistake of choosing Crimson Badlands/Isles (whatever the noob version of the daily is). I had instant flashbacks of doing daily zone. Every quest. Every Mob. Made me have a sickening sense of copy paste deja vu. | |} ---- yeah, we totally hate MMOs. thats why we play them all day and talk to our friends in guild chat all day. oddly enough, not everyone wants every last damned activity to involve needing 4-5 friends whio are the same level and gear level as you. hell, if that was the case I'd be boned seeing as my guild is all 20 levels below me. They cant help me do anything except you know. be my friends. In short. Blow me. | |} ---- lol no. People like the diet of easy stuff they have been living off of for the last few years. No one wants to talk to anyone else or have to think about what they are doing. Why do people think that anything that requires you to think or actually do some work as unpugable or too "hardcore". News flash it isn't. Some games are not drop in or drop out and just blindly push buttons and get gold. Its not gonna happen. Its what the game was ment to be. And guess what thats not a bad thing. Why do people want to change the game? Or what did they think it was? | |} ---- or maybe we just dont want to talk to you and people like you. I talk to people I'm friends with or zone chat all the time. Just because I like going at my own pace doesnt mean I hate groups. It means I have no patience for being forced to group when I dont volunteer to do so. Wildstar isnt largely unpuggable because people dont want to put in effort. Its largely unpuggable because the amount of reward you get for playing in a pug is nowhere near enough to justify the cost of doing so in repair bills and time investment. Just because you enjoy slamming your dick into a meat gruinder over and over and call it rewarding doesnt mean everyone is going to fall for the sunk cost fallacy on that one. | |} ---- Your opinion. How easy do you want this to be? Please let us know. You want one hit bosses? You want one skilled classes that way only one button to hit? You guys just blow my mind. They don't want to put in effort in, they don't want to actually have to move to avoid attacks because they got used to being able to tank anything. Effort is the problem. You can give people 10 plat for beating a boss it won't matter because people will still say its too much work. | |} ---- Just like yours is an opinion. Funny how that works. Its almost like we're both running off personal experience and or personal tastes in gaming. The difference being you seem to not acknowledge that other styles of play can be valid because *cupcake* other people. | |} ---- ---- This is somewhat divorced from the original context we're talking about it in. We're saying PUGs are not meant to be used for progression, and if you're expecting four random strangers to be able to perform at an appropriate level, you're assuming quite a bit about the average game ability at this point. This game is difficult. Having one person in your group that isn't very good is going to hurt your chances for getting gold and silver in a dungeon. Even if timers change or rewards are altered, nothing is going to make it any less frustrating if someone queued and isn't up to snuff. The group will wipe, you will need to repair, you may not get the gear you were running for. It's the nature of the pickup group, you're throwing the dice. I know I wouldn't be against the relative rewards being increased, especially if crafters had the ability to alter stats or at least fix your gear on the cheap so that it's something you can use. I think what seems to be a problem is that there's a sensation that people want the content to be made easier so that the average skill level of a PUG is enough to clear content clearly labeled for veterans. I'd be against this approach. I'm not sure exactly what level of gearing Carbine would see as excessive, but at the very least that's something that should be played with. Queuing into a PUG that just isn't good enough to clear high-level progression content is simply a risk of queuing, though, one that can only be completely mitigated by having a rolodex of tanks and healers with some ability. If you're looking for good ways to keep those tanks and healers playing after they hit the elder gem cap or to give them more reason to grind content after 50 beyond attunement, that's a better discussion to have, since Carbine could do that better. | |} ---- And yet you went here "Just because you enjoy slamming your dick into a meat gruinder over and over and call it rewarding doesnt mean everyone is going to fall for the sunk cost fallacy on that one." Differance is the game was ment to be played with people if you thought different you bought the wrong game. I think people are getting upset because they want to do things in the game but they want the game to change to something it never was ment to be. I saw the same vids as everyone else I knew what it was going to be from the start. 40 man raids? really? Bosses that spam the whole damn area unless you move your ass? I saw that coming a mile away and guess what. i said "cool" If I want to do that I will If I don't I won't. I knew what it would take to do that content and it didn't interest me. I didn't blind myself to what was right in front of me and I don't exect things to change just because I want them too. Now I understand your opinion because I was the sameway I got used to easy content same as everyone else. But lets be real this is not ment to be the same stuff we have been playing for a number of years. And it just surprises me people seem to think it was something different or ment to be something different. But what would you like? I'm seriously asking what would make this game easier in your opinion. Sorry some games take longer than an hr to play. But best of luck to you in something else. | |} ---- ---- I dont want the game to be 'easier" which is only what you keep hearing in your deluded rocks for brains granok mind along with this silly prattle about how "Oh, I was used to easy content too, I understand" I want content that gives those of us not interested in seeing genetic archives or a 70 minute or less swordmaiden run something meaningful to do at 50 other than grind crimson badlands for 30 minutes and log off. | |} ---- The OP was in reference to Sabotage, so yeah, was about PvP. I don't want content made where coordinated teamwork is penalized over PuGing. | |} ---- No give them everything they want and watch what happens. People got what they wanted with more servers and now look at the threads people make. So no give people everything they complain about. Watch the insults. And yes you do want it to be easier. Don't kid yourself. And honestly I hope you get what you want. It dosen't, done plenty of content without any of that but hey each to his own. | |} ---- well, me neither. But I also dont want all content to require headsets and a ventrilo/mumble/ teamspeak server. | |} ---- They don't -require- it. I can still hop into any BG and pride myself on a high KDA, set personal goals of prestige gain, objectives, etc. The game doesn't block me from entering this content. However, if the opposing team spends the time to get on a VOIP, coordinate and work together. Then they better damn well have a better chance at beating my team. They put forward the extra effort as a team and should reap the extra rewards. Drop 1 was a bunch of zones with single player content, a couple of group things. Drop 2 is a PvP drop that requires groups. I see no crises here, except maybe a manufactured one who isn't happy that premades can win easier than a bunch of uncoordinated cowboys. | |} ---- drop 1 wasnt a bunch of zones with single player content. it was one halfassed 20 minute single player storyline. 3 group quests/events, and a daily zone thats only marginally better than badlands in that it can drop dye, but is still basically running through the same robotic quests day in and day out. The only part of it that looks like it took any large quantity of effort was the blighthaven quest chain, and even they, the domi side version is just a copy and past with an npc nobody cares about. | |} ---- Like I said before, there is a reason why people are complaining about empty servers. Most normal gamers have left this game. Kinda of sad really. People who say that you dont need premade groups with Vent/TS for pretty much all worthwhile content at 50 are being disingenuous. Unfortunately, the only few people who still play Wildstar are those elitists who have tons of free time to waste on not playing. | |} ---- You don't. I've done it. Oh and I have full time job 40+hrs a week. Which I happen to be at right now its just a lil slow on the night shift lol. Edit-Now...here is the thing I didn't just jump into it however. I got all my gear in order before hand. I'm not silly lol. You just can't jump into things with like broken gear or lvl 30 shields etc etc. And then wonder why you are dying. | |} ---- ---- eh eh eh...watch that one. Not true. Example LOL plenty of premade teams. I've seen them come and go. Now on paper sure it should always happen but that dosen't always hold up. Now premade can mean hey I happen to know this guy in real life we just want to play together that dosen't mean they are better than anyone else. The thing I think makes a big differance is communication. Anyone can do that pug or otherwise. Or in the same boat if you don't communicate even if your a premade you can get steam rolled just as easy by a pug that does. Now what that communication is can be up for debate. I mean we can all type and sometimes thats good enough. Lets say a group spends about ten mins typing to each other before they do a run or spends 5 mins before each pull of a mob. It can go along way to overall success. | |} ---- Truche! But you can't deny that a well organized team of people that know each other will beat a disoranised group of strangers anyday. But you are technically right a premade can also be made up of crap players. And communication can be as simple as calling out important events and details, "calling Inc" and makeign calls in general. Some pugs either don't manage that or someone does make calls only the strangers don't listen. I've even been in instances in other games where someone was getting annoyed with a person calling things "STFU I don't care if they are capping GM noob". | |} ---- ---- Yup it ups the odds alot. I guess it would look something like this. Group of strangers no communication < Group of strangers communication Group of friends no communication < Group of friends communication Group of friends no communication < Group of strangers communication etc etc etc...Point is communication will top most things a majority of the time :D | |} ---- He isn't just talking about PvP. As I said above, any pvp map gives advantage to the coordinated team. It's pretty much a non-issue for PvP because it will always be that way. The absolute only reason it stands out in Sabotage is the number of players. The more people working together, the harder to beat them. As to PvE content, I sincerely hope that they keep adding content that is both fun to do and rewarding for small groups. I don't want raid gear for group content, I just want some form of reward that means something. It could be monopoly money spent on housing items and cosmetics, as long as it's something. | |} ---- ---- It just means that right now the dungeons you unlock while leveling is probably all you'll be doing. Think WoW minus the raids. There's still the dungeons, and veteran versions of the dungeons. The current biggest gripe is that loot is jacked up, and you can get crafted better than what you'll get doing those. Depends on how big of a carrot you need on your stick I guess. | |} ---- Angry hyperbole and insults. You’re just lobbying for aspects of the game you don’t like to be changed to something you do. But you can’t just say “I don’t like X so change it”, because that wont get you anywhere, so it changes to “nobody likes X”, or “everyone’s leaving the game because of X”. Instead of thinking that anything you don’t like must be bad and wrong, why don’t you act like a grown-up, accept that this game isn’t for you and move on? | |} ---- ---- ---- I'd be fine with that so long as people cant queue into unrated battlegrounds with rated gear on. otherwise you're basically just creating a world where anyone who wants to BG /has/ to arena or else they have no serious chance of ever seeing a win. | |} ---- But then how will the elite show how elite they are by steamrolling noobs? | |} ---- What exactly are you complaining about, anyway? It´s a bg. If you queue solo for a bg, your opponents will be a pug aswell. Even if the bg requires a lot of coordination to be played optimal, you still have a 50% chance to win since both groups will be uncoordinated. I dont really see where the problem is? | |} ----